In this interview, we speak with Dr. Noel Packard, independent researcher and session organizer of “Karl Marx and Max Weber on the Topic of Machines Dominating Labour,” a call for papers featured on the Sociology Group website. Dr. Packard discusses how Karl Marx’s idea of the self-reproducing machine and Max Weber’s notion of the “Machine State” shed light on the growing dominance of technology over human labour. Our conversation explores the enduring relevance of Marx and Weber in understanding automation, alienation, and the transformation of work in the digital age.
1. What inspired you to propose the session “Karl Marx and Max Weber on the Topic of Machines Dominating Labor”?
I have wanted to write a paper that compares how Karl Marx (1818- 1883) and Max Weber (1864- 1920) had ideas about a day when machines or a “Machine State” would out preform or dominate human labor and what this would mean for society. As a session organizer I can’t present a paper but it gives me the opportunity to hear what others think about this topic.
2. How do Marx and Weber’s ideas help us understand today’s machine driven world?
Marx lived in and wrote about the Industrial Revolution, which introduced former serfs to wage labor and (often times horrific) conditions of industrialized labor in the control of feared capitalists. Marx’s labor theory of value is a foundational concept for understanding what constitutes wages and ultimately paychecks – this is important to remember since machines do not earn paychecks.
Weber lived in Imperial Germany when Germany was essentially the Silicon Valley of the world because it produced the best machines in the world – particularly tabulating machines, which were incrementally improved into computers. Weber did survey work himself and saw the potentials of machine-processed data at work in the German firms and census bureaus. Weber’s concept of an ideal type reflects the scientific ideas of his time regarding a contingent universe where things repeat but never exactly the same way. This meant that humans were always changing and therefore not fully (machine) predictable. In todays real time electronically monitored world the machines may be intelligent enough to predict or just keep up with human behavior regardless of changes.
3. Marx wrote about a “perpetuum mobile” a machine that can reproduce itself and never die – unlike workers. How does this concept reflect the nature of automation, AI or digital capitalism?
When I think of the Internet I often think about how Marx used the term “perpetuum mobile” to describe the unceasing turnover of money by a machine of indestructible materiality, circulating a repeating and alternating flow of sale and purchase in his chapter entitled “Money and the Circulation of Commodities” under section 3 Money and section a) hoarding in MARX, K. (1976) Capital: Volume I. Ed. Mandel, E. Trans. B. Fowkes. London, U.K.: Penguin Classics, p. 227.
4. Weber warned about a “Machine State”. If Weber were alive today, how might he view modern surveillance systems, bureaucracy and algorithmic control?
“Machine State” which is the title of Weber’s fifth chapter in his theory of the modern state in Max Weber’s Theory of the Modern State Origins, Structure and Significance, by Andreas Anter and translated by Keith Tribe (2014) Anter wrote, that Weber “..considered that the development of the state was closely related to technology, which left its mark on the state, while being shaped by the state itself.” We might recall that the first expensive experimental and revolutionary interactive computers built and paid for by the U.S. government in the 1960s were given to the government to use first (see Packard 2023, pg. 3 fn. 4, here:( https://hdl.handle.net/2292/64456). What were they used for?
5. What kinds of papers or perspectives are you hoping to receive from participants?
Hopefully ones that are not AI generated – or if they are, will the human authors kindly name the AI enhancer machine as the co-author.
6. How does the session encourage scholars to connect classical sociology with modern digital realities?
The social problems of alienation and rationalization, capitalist wealth and inequality, abuse of power and authority, coerced markets, money hording and social stratification are as alive today and when Marx and Weber set down theories about these social problems over a hundred years ago. Revisiting their theories reminds us that these are not new problems that arrived with the digital age and the solutions for the problems might not be found in the digital age either.
7. What do you think Marx and Weber would say about social media and online labor economies?
I think they would have a lot to say. I wrote a bit about this myself in an article entitled “Habitual Interaction Estranged” in the International Journal of Social Sciences (DOI: 10.20472/SS2018.7.1.005)
8. Why is it important for younger researchers or students to revisit Marx and Weber now?
When I studied Sociology a the New School in the 1990s we read the original English translations of Durkheim, Marx and Weber first before reading more contemporary secondary literature that built on Weber or Marx’s theories. When I read some contemporary theories and sociology I often think that the research would be better and more meaningful if the author used Weber’s or Marx’s original words and theories to frame their research instead of using derivative theories that seem more confusing. On the other hand I understand how important it is to younger faculty and students to use the work of contemporary theorists who are in vogue – particularly if they want those authors to pay attention to their work for future career development purposes. It’s hard to obtain letters of recommendation, grants or a post doc from dead scholars, no matter how good their theories are. Then again knowing how to use classical theory well is a timeless, universal asset, since many secondary theories come and go.
9. Many people feel trapped by technology or alienated by digital work. Would Marx see this as a new form of alienation? How might Weber interpret it?
These are good questions and maybe someone who wants to participate in the session will send an abstract for a presentation that addresses how machines that we invest ourselves into almost 24/7 leave us less human and more alienated from ourselves our work and nature as Marx’s theory of alienation posited. Perhaps Marx’s, Theory of Alienation by István Mészáros (1970) could help us find answers to those questions.
10. How can this dialog between past and present help us rethink the future of labor and human creativity?
Both Weber and Marx did excellent comparative historical analysis – that was their labor. It’s great that this JC2026 online sociology conference for young students is focused on historical comparative research, an excellent type of labor to learn and use. Here’s a riddle that that type of labor could creatively be applied to: We don’t officially demarcate an epoch of the Internet as a time of changed social and economic relations as we do for other epoch shifts, such as the pre- from the post- WWII years. Why? How is it that so many people think they could never live without the Internet or cellphones, while at the same time they are unwilling or unable to agree on naming a demarcation or an epoch for when people did not live with the Internet and cellphones? Does this mean that people who have never lived without the Internet and cellphones cannot accept the reality that people did and can live without being dependent on the machine or does this mean that older people who lived without the Internet for decades do not fully accept the idea that now they are dependent on the machine? Is there some type of false consciousness at work in this scenario or have we become part of a Machine state that no longer affords self-reflexivity? `
11. What message would you give to those considering submitting a paper to your session?
If you have questions or would like to discuss anything please feel free to email me at npac825 @ aucklanduni.ac.nz
I welcome your abstracts and look forward to reading them and meeting you at the session!
Noel Packard (she/her pronounced Noelle from birth)
MORE DETAILS: Call for Papers: Karl Marx and Max Weber on the Topic of Machines Dominating Labour
We believe in sharing knowledge with everyone and making a positive change in society through our work and contributions. If you are interested in joining us, please check our ‘About’ page for more information